Camp File Rebalancing Doc › Antiblackness Answers › AT: Violent Revolution Alt---2AC
Scott Phillips: I guess in the context of that then I wanted to ask you about sort of some of the, the, I guess you wouldn't call them political projects, but what Afropessimists recommend that people do instead of sort of engage in liberal civil society. So I guess kind of a famous one, they use the quote from Césaire and Fanon about ending the world, or sometimes they say like burn it down. So I guess what, what do you think is the reason or the set of rationale for why sort of like engaging in sort of, I guess more traditional political struggle is meaningful/I guess why not try and do something and that sort of like more radical outside the system? I guess in kind of talking about this, I'm thinking about, in one of the books, you edited on African American studies. There's an exchange between Gates and Marable about how African American Studies departments should relate to the political system and trying to like kind of avoid the way academics can be sort of trapped within a only focusing on what's good for kind of government policy making problems. So like what, what is the effective way to be political while avoiding that kind of trap?
Lewis R. Gordon: Well, you know, these aren't [inaudible]. It always trumped me that people who have never really lived through violence and struggles romanticize it. You know, the people who did, a lot of people are calling for burning down are really saying for somebody else to do it, but they want the benefits of, of what happens when people build things up. They don't want to do with the hard work of building, look the problem with those kind of arguments is they're reactionary. What I mean by reactionary is this, it's a lot like what you see in the, the, the, the, the kind of arguments in which people throw people into a false dilemma. If you remember in the Black Panther movie the kill monger character kept saying, it's either conquer or be conquered. Now if you believe reality is only about if reality really is ontologically about being a conquerer or being conquered, then there really is only one thing you should do, conquer, so burn it down and dominate people. However there's another. But the problem with those is those are lies. There are other ways to do things. The other way to do things, to fight against a world that is structured according to conquerer and conquered. Now, if you're going to do that, that means then you got to say, wait a minute, maybe you're giving me a false dilemma. You see the issue isn't about you got to go via liberal and work in the system or you work completely outside of the system. You may there, there, there's a third option which is that one ultimately can work with a “both and” and what I mean by “both and” is, for instance, if you get up in the morning and you want to get somewhere what you may want, you may, you may use certain technological resources, but there are other things you may you could do. If one is trying to build a better society. The problem is you can't get A to Z without crossing B, C, D, E, and F, and that means that if you only look at Z, if you only look at the top of the mountain, you're failing to see the steps you'll have to go to get there. And if your response to get to the top of the mountain is to blow the mountain up, then you're then ultimately you go nowhere. The fact of the matter is, is that those kind of arguments have the same fallacy. That's in the recognition argument and those, in other words, the recognition argument tells black people there's only one way to be black and that's negative. Well, similarly, those kind of arguments basically say that there is only one way in which in which, one can, one, one, one, one can, one can, one can, can, can have a future, and that is one can have the future, if one can eliminate it completely the present, the problem with that is then that would put one in a position of a form of historical amnesia. Now, here's the problem with historical amnesia. If you ultimately really start completely over and you try to erase history, then you can also end up repeating the same mistakes of history. The more, the more mature position is to be able to have a relationship to history in which you know what you want and what you don't want. And that means in fact beginning to use the creative force of building something different. And the fact of the matter is, the kind of problems we're trying to deal with, particularly if we're thinking about revolution only makes sense within the context of the history we have. So, the response I would argue with those arguments is they're adolescent, they're naïve. They absolutely have no understanding of what political reality’s about. It strikes me that ultimately what we're going to have to do is to set the conditions in which we actually disempower the forces that are blocking the capacity to build something different. Now, here's something where Fanon was rather rather rather insightful and [inaudible name], and others worked too because you see the era they point out that's made is that at the moment of independence or at the moment in which it's what is poised for social transformation. There's often a willingness to be creative, synthetic and relational at the aesthetic level, but not at the level of the institutions of power. And what I mean by that is if you look at, for instance, many African states or many, many, many, many, many Caribbean states or many, many, many parts of the world in which independence emerged. The first thing that people do when they become independent is they start trying to connect to the rest of the world in terms of creating their own form of contemporary music, foods, and cultural production. However, at the moment of independence, what they don't do is to bring that creativity that unique way of building new forms of concepts to their political, educational, economic institutions, and so what you end up having in say if you If you pick a country like South Africa or if you pick quite a few other countries, not in the African continent, in the Caribbean. Their post-independence moment pretty much has the same education system they had in a colonial moment and what they fail to understand is that education system was designed for colonialism. So, if you're going to have a post-colony, if you're going to be, If you're going to transcend colonialism, you need to develop a radically different kind of education system. Similarly, if you look at a lot of these societies their legal systems tend to be almost identical to the colonial one. I mean, you see post-colonial states with people in tropics walking around with white wigs and robes in court rooms. That's nonsense. You see a similar thing, not only the educational, legal and political level, you see a similar thing happened at the economic level because in the end, even though they said they they're no longer colonies, the economic system that's maintained in the post-colony is pretty much the economic system that was in a colony and then we could look at it their religious systems. That's pretty much the same, when we go down the line. Now Fanon noticed something. It's not just those levels, but it's even at the level of the organization of architecture and civil planning. So, for instance, the very notion of the Metropole, the center, the capital city, that was also part of the colonial system, but it's possible to have a different conception of city, a different organization of power across a particular country or a society that may actually be more suitable to the society one lives in. And so, the creativity he was talking about was far more radical than simply than what many people may think. I think we see this a lot in science fiction, if you look at a lot and also very in in, if you look at things ranging from like Robin Hood and a Merry Men all the way to Star Wars and all of that stuff, they go to fight against the emperor. They burn it down. Then they have a big party outside, but what do they do afterwards? Then they go in and they build a society that in almost every respect look exactly like the thing they were trying to burn down. In other words, they fail to get to the question, the crucial question of how to build a world in which freedom can, can, can, can substantially and belong, and that requires being at home in, in, in very different kinds of human relationships than the ones that are governed by the system they began with. So that means then that if they are properly critical of society, they're trying to transform, they need to have a coherent conception and they need to work towards something they want to build. But I have to add a very important proviso and this was something Fanon noticed, but not only Fanon, there are many others who noticed this and what they noticed is this, if you're going to build a future, you know that point where I said that you are, if you're committed, you have to understand it's not about you. Well, it means if you're going to build a future, you have to understand it's the future premised on freedom, but the kind of people who will inherit it and the kind of people they may even become may be radically different than what you envision. The people who fought for our freedoms today, for instance, never thought of a world of trans people and different kinds of racial formations and political relations and religious formations. They never imagined that, but the fact of the matter, if they're committed to freedom, it means that we have to find and build a world in which we can live because the world, we can live in is a world that for them is not livable.